paint/primer frustration: buying locally

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paint/primer frustration: buying locally

Postby pqtex on Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:48 pm

Still prepping my salvaged columns for the front porch. Frustrated with the primer purchase.

I visited my local paint dealer with some questions about their Benjamin Moore Fresh Start Moorwhite Exterior Wood Primer (100), which is a long oil penetrating primer. The label says it is "slow drying for maximum penetration" and "Ideal for weathered surfaces." We discussed my questions about the wood prep and the application of the primer over the 50/50 BLO/Turpentine conditioning I'm going to use, as well as the compatible paint to use after the primer. I'd done my research and had a computer printout from the Benjamin Moore website (including a picture of the primer). I confirmed with them it was the appropriate product and plan for my specific situation (bare wood, 100 year old cypress columns). I had to special order because they no longer carry oil-based primer in the store.

I only ordered one can as a trial, and intended to buy the rest of my paint and primer from them once I decide whether I like it or not. I picked up my can last week, but only realized today that they ordered the wrong primer. They sold me the Multi-purpose interior/exterior oil primer instead of the Moorwhite exterior wood primer (100). The labels are similar and I'm not the expert and I didn't notice until today. The can is still unopened and I will try to return it next week for a re-order of the correct primer. If they won't accept the exchange, I won't quibble, as I should have noticed, but they are the experts. I can find another use for the primer if they won't accept it. What bugs me is that these people are supposed to have more knowledge than the big box stores.

Trying not to sound disgruntled, but I depend on people like this to guide me through my projects. I am a firm believer in supporting independently owned local businesses over the big-box stores, and I try to buy locally before buying online, but it is situations like this that make it impossible. I even had a picture of the product I was ordering. It is quite likely that I will settle this one can of primer, and not purchase the remainder of my paint and primer from this store. I have already located an online store that has a very reasonable, flat-rate delivery fee, regardless of how many cans of paint are purchased.

The online paint store I'm considering is Miller Brothers. In addition to Benjamin Moore, they carry the California Paint line, which has a linseed oil based primer. I didn't seriously consider it before because it isn't locally available. Now that I'm probably going to buy online, I do want to seriously consider and compare both: California Paint Linseed oil/alkyd exterior wood primer vs the Benjamin Moore Moorwhite Exterior wood primer.

Has anyone bought online from Miller Brothers?
Used the linseed oil primer from California Paint?
Pros, Cons?

I live in southeast Texas, which has high humidity and hot summers.
Which one would you choose?

Thanks for listening to me ramble.

Jill
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Re: paint/primer frustration: buying locally

Postby Sombreuil_Mongrel on Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:30 pm

This is not a direct answer to your q, but I routinely add extra linseed oil, turpentine, Japan Dryer and paint thinner to primer as desired to tailor it to the surface conditions. You can turn any oil-based primer into a slower-drying penetrating primer by adulterating it with these ingredients.
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Re: paint/primer frustration: buying locally

Postby pqtex on Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:34 pm

Sombreuil_Mongrel wrote:This is not a direct answer to your q, but I routinely add extra linseed oil, turpentine, Japan Dryer and paint thinner to primer as desired to tailor it to the surface conditions. You can turn any oil-based primer into a slower-drying penetrating primer by adulterating it with these ingredients.
Casey


I think I'm too insecure to mess with the commercial products. I sure don't have your knowledge and experience to know what I'm doing. :oops:
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Re: paint/primer frustration: buying locally

Postby jade mortimer on Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:52 pm

argh...sorry for your frustration especially after all the research you have done...

rule number 1: the paint store guys/gals are NOT the experts...they sell paint and paint has changed a LOT over the past 5-10 years...they get their training from the manufacturer....i was in my local paint store the other day and a woman asked which primer she should buy and why...the guy said "well, the oil primer takes a long time to dry and the latex dries fast"...then the woman said "ok, i'll get the latex"...some guys in paint stores painted for years and perhaps were familiar with paint properties from that era but no longer...i have seen top notch painting contractors charge a lot of money and do a piss poor job....

without hesitation the store should accept the return of the primer which they ordered incorrectly...they should apologize and promptly order the correct primer at no extra cost to you...

i think it's a good idea to use a primer and paint from the same manufacturer...'aura' is supposed to be ben moore's top of the line product...we use their exterior oil paint for exterior and impervo oil for interior finishes...i'm having a hard time finding a photo of the exterior oil product on bm's website...

if it comes down to it, i'm happy to mail you a quart of primer...you can show it to the store and make sure they order the same exact thing...

yup, we add linseed oil and/or turpentine to primer and paint when necessary...

good luck!
...jade
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Re: paint/primer frustration: buying locally

Postby pqtex on Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:12 pm

if it comes down to it, i'm happy to mail you a quart of primer...you can show it to the store and make sure they order the same exact thing...

Jade, you are so sweet! I don't need that, though. The people at the paint store are very nice even though I am frustrated that the wrong product was ordered even after I took a photo of what I wanted. I don't doubt the paint store will make good on it. If for any reason they don't, I really can use it for a different project. At any rate, I am mostly frustrated that the local guys, who should be able to provide specific regional guidance, are not very good at it. I just get fed up sometimes. I'll try to fix a problem only to a point, then I just take my business elsewhere. There just aren't many other options here.

yup, we add linseed oil and/or turpentine to primer and paint when necessary...

just how does someone like me, the average diy, know when it's "necessary"? and just how much is the right amount? :)
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Re: paint/primer frustration: buying locally

Postby modeltweaker on Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:21 pm

When Jade says the guys working the store are not experts that couldn't be more true. When we bought our house the trim was in very bad shape. I researched for a while and came to the conclusion it would be best to strip to bare wood and go with an oil based primer and latex top coat. At the time Benjamin Moore paint was one of the top rated. At my local BM store I was told that since my wood was old and back to bare I should apply two coats of Moorewhite, let it dry for a week and then topcoat with Mooreglo. After the first coat of primer I went back to the store and asked the guys if they were sure about the second coat. It went on rather thick and didn't seem to penetrate very well at all. They assured me that the second coat wa required so I did as they recommended. Within two years not one square in of the trim wasn't checked or cracked. When I called a local BM rep to come look at my issues his comment was "You should never use more than one coat of Moorewhite." This was a lot of work. I'm just a diy kind of guy so doing it twice because of bad advice was really painful.

On my fence I did it as was recommended by someone here. I painted it with a 50/50 mix or linseed oil and turpentine on the bare wood. Applied a oil based primer (Coverstain) thinned a little with turpentine for better penetration and a latex top coat (Behr). It still looks perfect 10 years later. So much for the expensive paint. I have become a big fan of linseed oil and turpentine.

These guys on the Old House Web seem to know their stuff. Even the one's who aren't experts. I would follow their advice.

Best of luck.
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Re: paint/primer frustration: buying locally

Postby pqtex on Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:22 pm

Modeltweaker, you have expressed my own feelings quite well. I certainly have more faith in most of the advice and experience here than at my local store. It's just frustrating when I try to do business locally and they don't get it right. I should be able to trust their advice and follow-through because they are local and should know regional and climate differences that might make my choices different from someone on OHW who, say, lives on the West Coast or in Canada or another very different climate.


When I first moved here, I was shopping for information between the local Benjamin Moore store and Sherwin Williams, trying to decide the best way to proceed with the interior painting. I could have gone into either store a different day each week and would have received a different answer answer each time. It is so frustrating when my only goal is to get the process set in my mind and the best product selected so that the job is done right the first time. I feel your pain about the advice you got about the 2nd coat, and all the extra work involved because of it. I've had similar things happen.
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Re: paint/primer frustration: buying locally

Postby Sombreuil_Mongrel on Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:39 pm

pqtex wrote:
Sombreuil_Mongrel wrote:This is not a direct answer to your q, but I routinely add extra linseed oil, turpentine, Japan Dryer and paint thinner to primer as desired to tailor it to the surface conditions. You can turn any oil-based primer into a slower-drying penetrating primer by adulterating it with these ingredients.
Casey


I think I'm too insecure to mess with the commercial products. I sure don't have your knowledge and experience to know what I'm doing. :oops:


To gain experience you have to step out there and take the risk. It's learned but the more you do and learn you'll develop instinct for what works and how it works, and then there will be no stopping you!
Mix a little of the primer with a small (10%) of added oil and a few drops of Drier in a paint pot (bucket; don't mix drier into the can!) and apply some to a scrap; If it dries by the next day, you have your first success as a paint adulterator.
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Re: paint/primer frustration: buying locally

Postby jade mortimer on Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:40 am

i agree with casey about testing...
since we make sure we have plenty of time for primer/paint applications drying, we do not add a drier to the product...i typically add about 10% turpentine (for thinning, hence better penetration) and 10% boiled linseed oil (to better condition the wood once penetrated)....

the way i see it, when applying penetrating primer directly to dry wood, the oil will be absorbed into the wood and the pigment will be left on the surface...that's why we apply ONE COAT of blopentine followed by one coat of penetrating oil primer...after one coat of blopentine, the wood has been conditioned but it will still be able to absorb the penetrating primer but not so much that it will wick out the oil from the primer...

each phase needs to dry sufficiently or undercoat coat will continue to dry while the coat on top will shrink and fail...

blopentine--12-24 hours in warm dry environment...
penetrating primer--48 hours in warm dry environment...
oil finish coat--24 hours in warm dry environment...
latex finish coat--typically 8 hours.....

hope that helps....
.....jade
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Re: paint/primer frustration: buying locally

Postby pqtex on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:49 pm

I hate to experiment on a major project, especially when I'm spending a lot of money on the paint and primer!

I talked to the folks at the paint store today. They are graciously ordering the correct primer for me and will exchange the other one. I expected that, but I still get the feeling they don't understand why it makes a difference to me. Oh well.

Jade...I know you use different brands, but you've mentioned Benjamin Moore as one of your go-to brands. Do you add the 10% turpentine and 10% boiled linseed oil to their oil primers as well? Specifically, which one do you use when you use their brand? Edited: I re-read your answer and think it answered that question. I just can't help but feel their chemists know more than me when it comes to adding things to the products! :)

You know, I really and truly appreciate the support this forum provides. I have gained a wealth of knowledge about many projects, many of which don't apply to me or I will probably never have occasion to tackle myself. I enjoy learning and reading about other homes and the process of progress. Then, when it comes to mine, it becomes a whole new world, and I doubt myself!

Jill
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Too bad the spam got so bad. Some of us have been spending time at the new community for folks with a love of old houses at wavyglass.org
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