About Those Historic Cisterns

[Eden]

Hi

Some of you know I bought a 1843 manor house in Upstate NY. It's been kept up, original clapboard, all hand laid stone basement, etc.

There has been an unusual amount of rain in this area the past 2 years. I knew there was an old in ground stone cistern in the back, the inside corner of the eL.

The cistern is leaking into the basement, I saw water running out on the inside wall of the basement - down low, like a hose hole. I'm thinking that originally a hose or pipe was attached to channel the water for use into the house/basement? I didn't look closely but feel the hole was sort of man made/intentional at some point. Historically, I'm researching filling it versus keeping it and stopping the overflow or find a way of draining it and keeping any rain water out. I hate to fill it with sand because I'd like to keep the house as it is if possible. The basement shouldn't be continuously damp, it will eventually soften and rot the wooden house on the stone sill/foundation. I've got a fan circulating continuously down there.

I still live in Maryland and only get up there once a month, the only reason I noticed the incoming water hole was probably that there has been so much rain this Spring and it broke through or overflowed, I don't know, just guessing. Outside at ground level it is covered with a huge slab of bluestone and has a smaller stone I can move aside - it looks the same as a well when peering in, water down there. Originally, the water it collected came off the roof. I guess the water in there now seeped down through the sides of the bluestone cover with all the rain.

It's not a museum but could be, its not on the historic register, it's one of many vintage homes (too many to mention falling in disrepair) in the area. None the less, I'm wrestling with myself about filling the cistern w/sand or... Searching on line, some folks claim that filling it with sand, dirt, etc will be too much weight against the basement wall causing it to cave in. I wonder how much that water weighs opposed to sand when the cistern is full? I would think that future owners could remove the sand. In essence for me, it's all about the integrity of the home site but not fighting a losing battle/$$$$.

Any input is very welcome, thanks

[aberdeen606]

In my opinion, it would be awesome if you could save and preserve it! But, you have to do what you have to do. If its brick lined and you fill it with sand, I guess it could always be shoveled out in the future?

What caught my eye though was that you said your cistern was in the inside el of your house? I've been told that my house used to have a hand pump on the old back porch, and from where I've been told it was it too was just inside the el of the house. Was this a common place of putting cisterns? I haven't found anything under my house yet, where I've been told it was, but it could have been filled in or something. Haven't dug around very deep because its hard to get to under the new deck thats there now.

[Eden]

Thanks for your reply Aberdeen.

It is in the back yard where the 2 structures of the house meet forming the eL - I'm referring to that being the inside corner on the outside of the house - it's an all hand laid stone cistern with the grassy yard surrounding the slab of bluestone covering the opening, I haven't measured it's depth.

But, yes, since it has stone walls, I too think sand could be later removed by a future owner, I myself won't need it - but perhaps filling it w/sand will preserve it in time? And relieve me of serious guilt?

But, hey, won't the sand become soaked and even heavier - jeez. I read the sand fill elsewhere, maybe fill dirt - that can be removed too...

Arrrrgh

[HB]

Filling it withsand won't keep the water out. There will be water between all the grains of sand.

if the cistern isn;t filing from the downspouts now, then the amount of water you see in it is the level of the groundwater in the area. I would suspect that perhaps is was a hand dug well, not a cistern, and that the hole leading into the basement is where the old well pump used to reside.

The best bet is to set up a sump to pass the water through the basement as quickly as possible. you should also look around for signs that there was always water in the basement.

I live in a house built in 1791 and our well is located just inside the "el" as well. Has a similar stone lid, and when we have wet weather, water runs across the basement floor. Previous owners explained that there used to be stone troughs in the basement that channeled the water through it and out a small hole to the nearby creek before they dug them out and laid a concrete floor down there (with no provisions for the water - idiots)

In our case, the house was designed to have a wet basement as indicated by the presence of an original internal stairwell leading to the basement (troughs were rudimetary refrigeration back in the day) and barred openings laid up with the original stonework that provide ventillation to the basement.

What I've done to ressolve the issue is to use the original well as a sump pit. I have a high flow pump in there and when the water reaches a certain level (just below the basement floor slab), the pump kicks on and pumps water through piping I installed through the basement that daylights near the creek. asement stay dry, although it's always damp, so I run a dehumidifier. My other option would be to unseal the original vents, but then too many critters would find their way in.

Good Luck.

HB

[Eden]

OMG HB

You are describing my basement! There are 2 dug out box like shelves in the dividing wall stone wall about 4 ft high, some old glass bottles are standing in them. No one can figure them out and down lower the pipe hole. The whole basement is beautiful, all stone and no crumbling. it's a lighter color than the blue stone in this area of NY, maybe limestone?

I am excited, I'm going to check out a sump pump!

I still see they previous owner, he told me it was a cistern and that the water use to run off the roof to fill the cistern. He is the 3rd owner and knew the 2nd owners... None the less, well or cistern, I'll go the sump pump route - I don't like it damp down there. I'll run both responses here by the PO too.

Thanks a lot

[Don M]

Hi Edee,
Our house had an outside cistern filled from the downspouts. The cistern extended inside the back wing of the house & I think there was likely a hand pump in the kitchen located above the cistern. Outside there was a cement slab over the vaulted brick cistern with a smaller cement square that could be removed for acess to the cistern. My parents farm house in upstate NY had an open cistern in the cellar which still functioned & provided soft rainwater for the laundry. We kids thought it was an inside swimming pool! I think HB has a good idea for dealing with your problem. Our cellar sometimes has clear cold spring water running through it but the water flows across the floor & goes down a sump opening, down a 6 inch pipe & out into the run! The old farmers really knew what to do. Otherwise the cellar is perfectly dry.
Good Luck, Don

[1880 Stick Victorian]

eden...
did you ever find out how the water was going in the cistern if there was no pipes taking water into the cistern? Every house in our village as indoor cisterns...some people have kept them and others have removed them... Being that the cisterns were indoor...most everyone has big windows in the basement they open in the summer. My neighbor in his 1850 farmhouse still opens his basement windows in the summer and still has a dirt floor.. someone poured concrete on our floor and installed a sump pump as well...which is nice as i use a dehumidifer.. no screens on our basement windows...already dealing with one witless bat in the attic... curious... can you look into your cistern?
scott

[mr Henry]

Check it out guys, I found these under my kitchen floor. The trap doors were covered by the base cabinets and I didn't even know what they were until 6 months after I started working on this project. This was nearly two years ago and have cleaned up nicely, the cisterns spotless. There's another cistern under my front porch that I'll most likely put in a trap door above just for fun...
The well's 22' deep and only has about 7' of water last time I looked.

[Nancy W]

Edee had surgery on her hand earlier this week and is out for 6 weeks. She does not have a computer at home and so will not be responding to your posts. Apparently she has been through this before, she said the hand will be painful or uncomfortable the first 2 - 4 days, then it will be the inconvienence of having to keep her arm in a sling to keep the hand elevated and protected. She will of course be limited in what is is able to do, but gets 6 weeks away from work. She plans to go the the farm in NY for a significant part of her recovery.

Nancy

[Eden]

I'm back, Nancy thanks for explaining my lack of response to the forum.

Aberdeen - I've seen your deck and have thought I'd like the same for the ell area behind my home, but want to solve the water issue...

Don & HB, I have not seen standing water but it is very, very wet & damp down there. My Maryland house has small streams of water running across the basement floor to a drain when it rains hard, it drys very quickly. Both these homes have full basements with 2 entries, inside stairs and bilco storm doors and both have windows. The Farmhouse has screens in the windows which I didn't open, I used a circulating fan because I'm not up there enough to leave them open.

I haven't seen flooding in the farm house but it's very damp, to include the walls. It stinks too, I can smell it upstairs each time I come into the house. I'm going to go down and swab bleach across the stone floor and maybe walls too with a mop. That will help for awhile....

Scott, I'm going to look into purchasing a sump pump but think I'll ask other folks in the area how they have handled it, great that you gleaned this info from the locals in your area. Yes, I can look into the cistern - it's outside under a large slab of bluestone in the ground, in the corner of the ell, and it does look just like a well peering down into it, the PO told me it had been a cistern filling from the roof rain run-off.

When it rains hard, the larger front porch roof has rain pouring like crazy, right down next to the foundation, I'm going try having gutters hung that porch roof and in the back over the ell, there is a small area right in the ell that they didn't install a stretch of gutter where rain pours down too, the rest of the roof has gutters. It was new in 2007.

Mr. Henry, very interesting - you couldn't smell the standing water, no dampness?

I love getting all this info, what a team OHW is, awesome!!!